I believe he also was something of an unwitting prophet, possibly used by the Lord Himself, to reflect a mirror back at U.S. Christendom. And if the insight and oversight in wisdom and understanding must come from books or online, so be it. Throughout the many posts, including this one, there has been some balance and at least an appearance to be open for discussion, albeit without original proof. He promised never to leave me, This man is a disgrace to humanity. I am not saying that I am a proponent of hierarchy. Its time for all these leaders to stop whining as if they were the victims and demonstrate a genuine show of sackcloth and ashes before the masses they deceived the real victims who must now live with being tithe-paying participants in this scam against Holy God. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. Abigail: Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? He is best known as the creator, director and co-writer of The Chosen, the first multi-season series about the life of Jesus of Nazareth.. Jenkins's career is focused on faith-based media. I dont have any answers. Ishy: Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? They stated goal is to also expose hypocrisy and arrogance. ++++++++++++++++++. Sure its likely that not everyone knew everything, but no one is telling all they know, and you can only suppose it has much to do with the filthy lucre they received from the till. Revamping the financial transparency laws for 501-c3 religious entities would be a good start. Funny how highly institutional types value the written word of God, yet despise the teaching of godly elders that is available to one and all in countless books written through the ages. HBC Youth Bible Study. The mega-masters vocalize Jesus occasionally and even talk about Him from a gospel vantage point. Years ago, I decided to go forth with my name on this blog I did it to help people who have reason to suspect that their identity could cause them problems with out of control churches If yo have a problem with anonymity, take it up with me. And all youre ever going to be is mean I suspect that all of this is true, and more. This moved the church into a season of transitional leadership for the next 27 months. To be brief. Look what that got them. Dont think our former pastors quite there. Prayer Requests Our '3rd Service' is an online experience drawn from our live Weekend Gatherings. Vague and almost never supported accusations, e.g., the posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the commentshere is always, in my experience, just a smear from someone whos actually rather cowardly and just looking to defame. Harvest has impacted me in this way too & I can relate to the emotional impact that you both describe. PRESBUTEROS = EPISKOPOS = POIMEN You worked for Us. Where in scripture does God say that elders have authority over those they care for, or that elders should rule over them? RAWR!, I doubt that the facts will stop MacDonald from making an unrepentant comeback. That movie became a kind of a shibboleth at our church when it came out. At their final congregational meeting, they became a Harvest Bible Chapelgifting their building to us. TS00: I find it very comforting to know that Jesus entered into a world that was very similar to what we now face: Religion had become a caricature of what God desired, and Jesus gently called people to follow him, rather than fear men. I am not on Twitter myself, but I have been following others, like you. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Time and again in these situations, people who were involved exclaim about how God was working and God was doing things! I thought it myself in the situation I was part of, years ago. not greedy for money . Theyre showing their colors alright. This will always happen, there is no way to avoid it. Ive felt sins breakers dashing, (baby dont hurt me no more) Maybe JMs associates and enablers thought the most loving thing was to go along with JM for the sake of the everlasting benefits in heaven that would be experienced in the future by the people who were being abused, manipulated, fleeced here under the sun, but who nevertheless were hearing the gospel (as they understood gospel), even though it looks to us like it was being preached from false motives. Recreated vertical version of "Hallelujah" sang by Heather Headley reflecting on the sacrifice of our savior. Wasnt it Groucho Marx who once quipped, I would never join an organization who would have me as a member? These arent hard hurdles for true elders to get throughbut if you ask a church elder to tell you about their elders and it comes back with a set of corporate jargon? Ken F (aka Tweed): I only point out that the historical evidence is not what we protestants want it to be. Honest question: why does it matter what Paul thinks? and bring me another beer. (although unnecessary according to ECFA standards).. I find it very comforting to know that Jesus entered into a world that was very similar to what we now face: Religion had become a caricature of what God desired, and Jesus gently called people to follow him, rather than fear men. not quick-tempered This verse came to mind: For it is the time for the judgment to have begun from the house of God; and if from us first, what will be the outcome of those disobeying the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17) The business-first model that seems so pervasive and knocks down just about any scrutiny until there is videotaped evidence would seem to fit somewhere in that spectrum, no? First question: when was this letter written and sent? The thought has come to me again and again (others have expressed similar views) that the Church seems to recapitulate (history rhyming if not repeating exactly) Old Israel. But as long as theres sin, there will be plenty of work to do to shine a light in the dark places of Christendom. Since I hate group think, we did not go. I will be praying for you. That set-up is far from the Biblical model of doing church and is a recipe for disaster, especially when it reaches mega-status. Unfortunately, the American church is such a mess that it provides sufficient wiggle room for charlatans to launch another ministry and drag the precious name of Christ through the streets again. Dallas Jenkins As many others have also said, I couldnt care less about what house or car James owns. Without any explanation, Dee says she is convinced that Hall is repentant. I think you are correct in noting this early Church writer's statements. But one way or the other, my instincts about Hall dont alter my opinion that Dee likely has good reasons to not want to use this forum to air a familys personal tragedy any more. In celebration, we hosted Summer Revival at our Elgin campus. It obviously took courage for you to write it. It allows us to pour more money into local ministries and needs as well as overseas ministries. Bad decisions lead to pain. The elders, set in place by God Himself (Ephesians 4:11), are to watch over, tend to and care for the flock of God. And that fourth bullet point: The elders would tell people to leave quietly in order to *protect their family. Some may, and some may not know what the elders of a church are, and therefore, we might find this to be a much needed study regarding the church that Jesus established. Ill have to ruminate on that a while. i look forward to chatting about it. I do have to apologize for a comment that I made that was based on my faulty memory of the facts. A friend became nearly apoplectic when I tried to explain this. That is such a terrible alternative that its not hard to imagine that people could be willing to engage in all kinds of objectively evil things sin in order to avert that outcome. Its obvious that theres not enough scintilla of evidence to convict most of them of being Christian. I am sorry that my concerns about the institutional church from day one cause you distress. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? Bible Follower | The Bible contains a wealth of knowledge and wisdom that's waiting for us to unearth it. Pre-1970 power (denominational competition for theological control of the Body of Christ), Post-1970 money (mega-madness begins, 6-figure salaries, limelight, mansions, jets). Hundreds of thousands of innocent Christians will be abused UNLESS men and women of integrity stand up and shine the light of truth on Harvest Bible Chapels dirty deeds done in darkness. Does that make you manly? Sad. I must be having a rough night. The movie is being produced by Vertical Church Films, a new film-making branch of the Elgin-based megachurch Harvest Bible Chapel, with its estimated $2 million budget underwritten by the. Bayloy University Medical Center, 3500 Gaston Ave., Dallas, TX 75246 carlos_bll@yahoo.com Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, Diocese of Chicago and Detroit Bishop Peter Loukianoff 4/26/2019 Community Bible Church Ed Newton and Sean Metcalf 2477 N. 1604 East San Antonio TX 78232 5/1/2018 Harvest Bible Chapel Tampa Bay Rev. I have to admit that Philippians 1 often comes to mind as I look at these mega-messes the American church is in. Because he met the qualifications for eldership? But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them (Acts 5:38-39). Debby: Check out the Stronger Mens Conference This in spite of the fact that our family was the friendly face that attracted many, the ones who were always approachable, in a way that the cool, distant pastor could not be. Unless it was a danger to someone. Every church leader should be good and honest. I would like to believe, and I think theres pretty good textual evidence that this is valid, that what Jesus and the apostles intended (and that apparently did not continue for very long after the passing of the apostolic generation) was that the hierarchy would be a hierarchy of self-giving. We do use the facility a lot during the week and make it available for local schools to use. He is faithful, gracious, merciful, kind and always desires and seeks out your best. not covetous Youre right to say kind of. For me I choose to pray and let God work, he never ceases to amaze especially when he answers prayer. (just like Adam hearkening to his wife in the garden huh?) We dedicated a new building as the new home for the Crystal Lake Campus in 2008. Backfired twice over. Thats it! If you have questions, concerns, or encouragements for them, they would love to hear from you. That meant that he used smoke and mirrors to make MacDonald and his minions appear not to be incredibly stupid, unbiblical and mean. Whew! All that we could come up with was that we, and they, were faithful and generous givers and attenders of the mens bible study. Exactly what were people afraid of? Muff Potter: The daughter of Matt Slick (big-gun-reformed-apologist) converted to fundamental atheism. Forgive MacDonald if he genuinely repents? . Muff Potter: Youre not alone elastigirl, theres no way I could watch it either. It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. Thanks so much for passing on much needed information. TS00: And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. ++++++++++++++++++. You have done some confession, but in private only. Heard somewhere; Hell never be a great man.. One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. MacDonald gave Mark Driscoll $50,000? I suspect that even MacDonald started out with good intentions (maybe), but when the accolades and money started streaming in started gambling with success. Not exactly the mild and loving spirit of Jesus. ANYONE who is still in that place who is not a child or a new believer is complicit and participated in shunning all who left. This will always happen, there is no way to avoid it. No self-declared elders have authority over anyone who does not put their voluntary and continued trust in them. Dallas, maybe you should read the red letter Bible the T. Jefferson compiled from the King James Version? In most of these cases, thats true because the red flags were there. Sadly, I was guilty of the same in my day, taking the word of the pastor that those who left us were never one of us. When she cleared the backlog, the partial Lauren went through along with my original longer one. I dont think one can derive that theory from that word showing up once in the entire NT in Peg 4, 4th in a list. They are increasing in excellence in academics and athletics, and all that God has in store for the next chapter. and the thought of gathering up ones gumption and taking risks is tiring. love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. in the interest of understanding, can you explain what you mean by grace? Women's Bible Study. For example, no one would say that those who spoke out about Bill Hybels harassing women were wrongly airing a personal grievance.. Somewhere in the book we read that God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.. People were dying for this faith from the very beginning, which suggests that it was not merely wishful thinking about some made up traditions. We have versions of truth and half-truth at best in most places, allowing a theological DNA to supersede the real thing. It must be recognized that all three words refer to the same position within the church. I was there (our kids went there for 2 too long years) and it was unreal what went on during and after that incident. Its a lonely place, especially when my life was steeped in church community, teaching, and deep, deep, love for Christ and His people. God bless. At Harvest Kids, we love teaching Gods Word. So many things bring to mind what Leah Remini is bringing to light. As Lauren Diagle says it so very well: Im losing my religion/ To find You/ Im losing my religion, and finding something new/ Cause I need something different/ And different looks like You/. But if it comes to that you can sit them down and model thankfulness that they and you suffer together for the name of Christ. His client, the alleged molester, told him they were false. Director Dallas Jenkins on the Goshen, Utah, set of "The Chosen" Season 2. I am sorry for your pain. JDV: This verse came to mind: For it is the time for the judgment to have begun from the house of God; and if from us first, what will be the outcome of those disobeying the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17) The business-first model that seems so pervasive and knocks down just about any scrutiny until there is videotaped evidence would seem to fit somewhere in that spectrum, no? Others became trapped by guilt and barely concealed extortion. Never! But how long, under the sort of behavior he and others depict, can one be excused for overlooking the facts? Im not holding my breath. 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